Battle of the Trenches
For the past several years Penn State has been able to simply reload along the defensive line. It couldn't be anymore different along the offensive line. For the first time in decades Penn State reached into the JUCO ranks for two offensive lineman. This was a desperate move to try and help bolster an offensive line that anually seems strong at a few spots, questionable at others, and almost razor thin in total. You need to look no further than the 2007 offensive line for an example of the lack of quality depth. If AQ Shipley, Dennis Landolt, or Gerald Cadogan go down, Penn State could be in major trouble.
So what is the answer to the question? Why is PSU so much stronger along the defensive line than the offensive line? Why do names like Joe Toriello Jr. and Patrick Weber Sr. show up on the offensive line depth chart? Is Larry Johnson that much better than Bill Kenney and Dick Anderson when it comes to recruiting and developing talent at his position?
I decided to take a closer look at this debate and figured the best place to start is where it all begins, recruiting. From 2002-2007 Penn State has brought in the following players along the DL/OL according to Scout.com.
2002
Brian Borgoyn -- 4 Star OL
Jay Alford -- 3 Star DL
Chris Auletta -- 3 Star OL
Lee Lispi -- 3 Star OL --
Robert Price -- 3 Star OL
*Steve Roach -- 3 Star OL - Moved to DL
Ed Johnson -- 2 Star DL
Tamba Hali -- 4 Star DL
Mark Farris -- 4 Star OL
*Levi Brown -- 4 Star DL -- Moved to OL
2003
Amani Purcell -- 3 Star DL
Joel Holler -- 4 Star OL
Dan Mazan -- 3 Star OL
*John Shaw -- 3 Star DL -- Moved to OL
2004
*Elijiah Robinson -- 2 Star DL -- Moved to OL
Gerald Cadogan -- 3 Star OL
*Josh Gaines -- 3 Star TE -- Moved to DL
Rich Orhnberger -- 3 Star OL
Trent Varva -- 3 Star OL
Austin Hinton -- 2 Star OL
AQ Shipley -- 4 Star OL
Greg Harrison -- 5 Star OL
Wyatt Bowman -- 3 Star OL
*Mike Lucian -- 3 Star TE - Moved to OL
2005
Dennis Landolt -- 3 Star OL
Matt Lowry -- 2 Star OL
Chris Baker -- 3 Star DL
2006
Antonio Logan El -- 5 Star OL
Maurice Evans -- 4 Star DL
Phil Taylor -- 4 Star DL
Lou Eliades -- 4 Star OL
Jared Odrick -- 4 Star DL
Ollie Ogbu -- 2 Star DL
Doug Klopacz -- 2 Star OL
Abe Koroma -- 3 Star DL
Tom McEowen -- 4 Star DL
Johnnie Troutman -- 3 Star OL
Eric Latimore -- 3 Star DL
Aaron Maybin -- 4 Star DL
2007
Chimaeze Okoli -- 3 Star DL
Devon Still -- 4 Star DL
Nerraw McCormack -- 3 Star JC OL
Ako Poti -- 3 Star JC OL
Stefen Wisniewski -- 4 Star OL
Josh Marks -- 4 Star OL
JB Walton -- 4 Star OL
Quinn Barham -- 3 Star OL
Kevion Latham -- 3 Star DL
Offensive Line Totals
5 Star -- 2
4 Star -- 9
3 Star -- 15
2 Star -- 4
Total Players -- 30
Average Star Rating -- 3.3
NFL -- 1 (Brown)
Excellent -- 2 (Brown, Shipley)
Above Average -- 3 (Eliades, Orhnberger, Landolt)
Average -- 3 (Shaw, Cadogan, Auletta)
Below Average -- 3 (Price, Klopacz, Poti)
Poor -- 10 (Farris, Holler, Lowry, Mazan, Varva, Hinton, Logan El, Bowman, Lucian, Lispi)
Jury is Still Out -- 6 (Troutman, Wisniewski, Marks, Walton, Barham, McCormack)
Injury Forced Out -- 3 (Borgoyn, Harrison, Robinson)
Defensive Line Totals
5 Star -- 0
4 Star -- 7
3 Star -- 10
2 Star -- 1
Total Players -- 18
Average Star Rating -- 3.33
NFL -- 3 (Hali, Johnson, Alford)
Excellent -- 3 (Hali, Johnson, Alford)
Above Average -- 7 (Baker, Taylor, Evans, Koroma, Odrick, Ogbu, Maybin)
Average -- 1 (Gaines)
Below Average -- 0
Poor -- 2 (Roach, Purcell)
Jury is Still Out -- 5 (Still, Okoli, Latham, Latimore, McEowen)
Injury Forced Out -- 0
Put all of this together, crunch some numbers and the results look like this.
*53% of the offensive Line recruits brought in since 2002 received an average to poor rating while 17% of defensive line recruits fell in the same category.
*33% of the offensive line recruits received a poor rating while 11% of defensive line recruits were given a poor rating. One of those defensive lineman was recruited to PSU as offensive lineman.
*17% of the offensive line recruits received a above average to excellent rating compared to 56% for the defensive line.
* On average one out of every two defensive line recruits brought in have developed into an above average player while one out of every five offensive line recruits brought in have developed into above average players.
*The only NFL player produced by Penn State at the offensive line position was recruited to PSU as a defensive lineman. In the same time period Penn State has put 3 defensive lineman in the NFL.
*The average star rating for the offensive line recruits was 3.30 compared to 3.33 for the defensive line recruits.
Granted the ratings of each player are one writer's opinion, but the results are startling none the less. It's pretty obvious that Larry Johnson Sr. is simply better at recruiting and developing talent along the defensive line. He has a proven track record of doing more with the talent he is given. Many will argue that the offensive line coaches aren't to blame for kids not living up to the hype. After all, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken... well you know. My response is simple, who chose to recruit those players and give them a full scholarship to Penn State? Who decided to recruit two JUCO lineman, one of which will more than likely never play a significant snap at PSU?
Regardless of how you look at it, Bill Kenney and Dick Anderson need to do a better job of evaluating talent and developing it. I'm not sure how anyone could look at the statistics above and disagree. Until that happens, expect the trends outlined in this article to continue.
Good Day and Happy Hunting.
So what is the answer to the question? Why is PSU so much stronger along the defensive line than the offensive line? Why do names like Joe Toriello Jr. and Patrick Weber Sr. show up on the offensive line depth chart? Is Larry Johnson that much better than Bill Kenney and Dick Anderson when it comes to recruiting and developing talent at his position?
I decided to take a closer look at this debate and figured the best place to start is where it all begins, recruiting. From 2002-2007 Penn State has brought in the following players along the DL/OL according to Scout.com.
2002
Brian Borgoyn -- 4 Star OL
Jay Alford -- 3 Star DL
Chris Auletta -- 3 Star OL
Lee Lispi -- 3 Star OL --
Robert Price -- 3 Star OL
*Steve Roach -- 3 Star OL - Moved to DL
Ed Johnson -- 2 Star DL
Tamba Hali -- 4 Star DL
Mark Farris -- 4 Star OL
*Levi Brown -- 4 Star DL -- Moved to OL
2003
Amani Purcell -- 3 Star DL
Joel Holler -- 4 Star OL
Dan Mazan -- 3 Star OL
*John Shaw -- 3 Star DL -- Moved to OL
2004
*Elijiah Robinson -- 2 Star DL -- Moved to OL
Gerald Cadogan -- 3 Star OL
*Josh Gaines -- 3 Star TE -- Moved to DL
Rich Orhnberger -- 3 Star OL
Trent Varva -- 3 Star OL
Austin Hinton -- 2 Star OL
AQ Shipley -- 4 Star OL
Greg Harrison -- 5 Star OL
Wyatt Bowman -- 3 Star OL
*Mike Lucian -- 3 Star TE - Moved to OL
2005
Dennis Landolt -- 3 Star OL
Matt Lowry -- 2 Star OL
Chris Baker -- 3 Star DL
2006
Antonio Logan El -- 5 Star OL
Maurice Evans -- 4 Star DL
Phil Taylor -- 4 Star DL
Lou Eliades -- 4 Star OL
Jared Odrick -- 4 Star DL
Ollie Ogbu -- 2 Star DL
Doug Klopacz -- 2 Star OL
Abe Koroma -- 3 Star DL
Tom McEowen -- 4 Star DL
Johnnie Troutman -- 3 Star OL
Eric Latimore -- 3 Star DL
Aaron Maybin -- 4 Star DL
2007
Chimaeze Okoli -- 3 Star DL
Devon Still -- 4 Star DL
Nerraw McCormack -- 3 Star JC OL
Ako Poti -- 3 Star JC OL
Stefen Wisniewski -- 4 Star OL
Josh Marks -- 4 Star OL
JB Walton -- 4 Star OL
Quinn Barham -- 3 Star OL
Kevion Latham -- 3 Star DL
Offensive Line Totals
5 Star -- 2
4 Star -- 9
3 Star -- 15
2 Star -- 4
Total Players -- 30
Average Star Rating -- 3.3
NFL -- 1 (Brown)
Excellent -- 2 (Brown, Shipley)
Above Average -- 3 (Eliades, Orhnberger, Landolt)
Average -- 3 (Shaw, Cadogan, Auletta)
Below Average -- 3 (Price, Klopacz, Poti)
Poor -- 10 (Farris, Holler, Lowry, Mazan, Varva, Hinton, Logan El, Bowman, Lucian, Lispi)
Jury is Still Out -- 6 (Troutman, Wisniewski, Marks, Walton, Barham, McCormack)
Injury Forced Out -- 3 (Borgoyn, Harrison, Robinson)
Defensive Line Totals
5 Star -- 0
4 Star -- 7
3 Star -- 10
2 Star -- 1
Total Players -- 18
Average Star Rating -- 3.33
NFL -- 3 (Hali, Johnson, Alford)
Excellent -- 3 (Hali, Johnson, Alford)
Above Average -- 7 (Baker, Taylor, Evans, Koroma, Odrick, Ogbu, Maybin)
Average -- 1 (Gaines)
Below Average -- 0
Poor -- 2 (Roach, Purcell)
Jury is Still Out -- 5 (Still, Okoli, Latham, Latimore, McEowen)
Injury Forced Out -- 0
Put all of this together, crunch some numbers and the results look like this.
*53% of the offensive Line recruits brought in since 2002 received an average to poor rating while 17% of defensive line recruits fell in the same category.
*33% of the offensive line recruits received a poor rating while 11% of defensive line recruits were given a poor rating. One of those defensive lineman was recruited to PSU as offensive lineman.
*17% of the offensive line recruits received a above average to excellent rating compared to 56% for the defensive line.
* On average one out of every two defensive line recruits brought in have developed into an above average player while one out of every five offensive line recruits brought in have developed into above average players.
*The only NFL player produced by Penn State at the offensive line position was recruited to PSU as a defensive lineman. In the same time period Penn State has put 3 defensive lineman in the NFL.
*The average star rating for the offensive line recruits was 3.30 compared to 3.33 for the defensive line recruits.
Granted the ratings of each player are one writer's opinion, but the results are startling none the less. It's pretty obvious that Larry Johnson Sr. is simply better at recruiting and developing talent along the defensive line. He has a proven track record of doing more with the talent he is given. Many will argue that the offensive line coaches aren't to blame for kids not living up to the hype. After all, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken... well you know. My response is simple, who chose to recruit those players and give them a full scholarship to Penn State? Who decided to recruit two JUCO lineman, one of which will more than likely never play a significant snap at PSU?
Regardless of how you look at it, Bill Kenney and Dick Anderson need to do a better job of evaluating talent and developing it. I'm not sure how anyone could look at the statistics above and disagree. Until that happens, expect the trends outlined in this article to continue.
Good Day and Happy Hunting.
Yeah, I disagree with where you slotted some kids in your ratings... But I do agree with your conclusion.
Our OL has actually been statistically pretty darn good the past two years. They clearly got man-handled by michican last year, but otherwise gave up very few sacks (with a relatively unmobile Q
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I expected opinions to vary on where kids should be slotted. You can move a few kids up and down, but as you said it doesn't really change the outcome. We have had decent lines, but the overall depth and quality has dropped off significantly.
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Can someone fax this article to JOEPA?
Nevermind you better fedex it to him, I am not sure he has gotten a handle on fax's yet.
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I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion but it is pretty tough to really rate guys like Koroma, Ogbu, Poti, etc. when they haven't played a down of college football yet. I would have a lot more gus in the Jury is still out category.
And I thought Wyatt B. was forced to stop playing due to injury?
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Maybe it's true that evaluating Offensive Lineman is the hardest job in recruiting. This seems to be a common theme in my reading on the subject.
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This is an excellent piece. I'd love to see how PSU compares to other schools in the same regard. I wonder if that trend is common nationally or it's just a major problem for Penn State.
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You guys missed Aaron Maybin
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Thanks for the catch, he was added.
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What a load of crap. For example, why is Bowman not listed as forced out by injury, when that was the reason given out if the coach's mouth? Nice stcking the figures.
Looks like a product of the Patriot News School of Hatchet-Jobs.
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Max - Keep in mind, this is a blog, not some circulated newspaper. That said, I believe the writer did his best to be objective in his evaluation.
For example, Bowman had three years in the program, so writer could make an evaluation based on that. Looking at all players on this year's starting OL, all either came in same recruiting class, or those after Wyatt came to PSU. In viewing last year's (2006) depth chart, Bowman was behind even more guys that came in with him or after. That considered, it is hard to debate that injury held him back. I believe injury ended Bowman's career, but he did have an opportunity that did not pan out. Regardless, Wyatt will always be a Lion.
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Bowman wasn't on the team in the 2006 season. He had knee surgery after the Orange Bowl and didn't come back for the 2006-07 season.
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Max... do you think switching Bowman to the injured column is going to skew the figures that much? It would not change the premise of the article in the least. You're entitled to your opinion and I thank your for reading the blog.
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I agree, the slotting of kids was definitely done just to support the writers conclusion.
Although, I agree that L. Johnson is a great coach, it is ridiculous to slot Baker, Taylor, Evans, Koroma, Odrick, Ogbu, Maybin as above average. Most of these players haven't even played a down of college football, and the rest haven't played enough for anyone to realistically judge them as "above average." Similarly, it is far too early to judge Landolt and Eliades yet.
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That's because Bowman was God AWFUL! Total waste of a schollie!
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17,
Good analysis. While individual opinions will vary, the macro point is well made and is clearly justified.
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I have been very critical of the o-line in the past, but I do not think it has been a critical weakness for the team the past couple of years. I think this article is a couple of years too late with regards to relevance. If you look at the starters, they are all young (with the exception of Shaw) and will all be multiple year starters. This article has absolutely no way to accurately reflect this upward trend. Does the line have depth? At the tackles, very little. But in reality you typically only need one backup there in case of injury. Does the line have depth in the middle? I believe in addition to being the strength of the line, the middle also has very good depth. I'm sure they will find an adequate back-up center by the time the season starts. The reality is no team goes 10 deep on the line. I think if you go 8 deep you are doing outstanding. I believe this team goes about 7 deep.
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Kenney has put a good number of TE's in the NFL which in all fairness to him should at least be mentioned.
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I have to question how it would be the fault of the OL coaches where some of the guys didn't work out. Recruitniks gave 4 or 5* ratings to Borgoyn, Farris, Holler& ALE. One was injured-3 didn't have drive. They also gave 3* to Mazan and Varva. Holler, Mazan and Varva all transferred--they may have been encouraged to do so. It is possible that these guys were overrated coming in, and then floundered. It is possible the OL coaches poorly assessed their talent OR their drive, but some of this has to do with how badly the players want to succeed--did they go "above and beyond" like Paul Puz and Sean Lee?
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How can you slate Shaw has average when he started 10 games last year and Baker as 'above average' when he has yet to do anything, and with the new talent doesn't look like he'll ever crack that starting lineup. I agree with your point, but you did stack the numbers a bit.
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Shaw has played quite a bit and has never overly impressed. He is playing mainly because of the lack of any quality offensive lineman. Baker is above average now based on things I have been told. Just because he isn't going to start doesn't mean he isn't above average, look at where I slotted Eliades. I ranked a lot of the rs frosh, rs sophs and sophs based on first hand accounts of their performance to this point. I'm the first to admit these rankings are just my opinion and I suspected they would be the main point of contention. Thanks for the post.
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If Greg Harrison hadn't got hurt and Logan El had come to play our offensive line would be looking pretty good now.
You can't blame the coaches for career ending injuries. Could the coaches helped Logan El adjust to Div I football? I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to this. He transfered to a lower division school so I get the impression he wanted to play where he didn't have to work to be a starter. Everybody wanted him so I don't think his lack of desire was something the coaches could have picked up on when they were recruiting him.
There was a time in the late '90's when everyone was asking why our D-line couldn't stop anyone. So maybe it is a cyclical thing which they can work their way out of.
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Go back a few more years and throw Kennedy, Adams, and Haynes in the NFL column and look at the Oline in those years and probably gets worse.
What about Andrew Richardson and Scott Paxson?
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