Point/Counterpoint
Welcome to the first installment of what is going to become a regular column here on Laschout. We are calling this Point/Counterpoint. In this article we have chosen two well known and intelligent Penn State football fans These fans, while both being ardent followers of all things Penn State related, have slightly differing opinions regarding the state of the football program and the direction that they would like to see the program go.
This is the beauty of the Point/Counterpoint features. It will give two "regular" PSU fans an open forum to speak their minds and express their opinions without reservation. Each participant will write about a particular Penn State football related topic and tell everyone how they truly feel. Each guest blogger here on Laschout has been given a specific topic to write about and they have been given free reign to "blast away" as they see fit. Generally the fans being chosen to be guest bloggers in this column will hold "opposing" viewpoints. Hence the Point/Counterpoint title.
Anyone interested in becoming a guest blogger for the Point/Counterpoint feature please feel free to email us at Laschout95@gmail.com.
The topic given to this weeks guest bloggers is the following...Is Penn State's recruiting strategy still effective in todays college football world?
First up will be the regular internet poster Groz18020. For those of you keeping score at home this poster is a regular on the Fight on State (from Scout.com) TAP forums and is one of the more widely respected "pro PSU" posters in the community. This individual has decided to keep his identity anonymous, therefore he has adopted the pen name Groz18020 for the purposes of this feature. This is what he had to say...
It really boils down to what the expectations of a football team are. Unfortunately most cases in "today's college football world," the expectation is to win at all costs. There have been some well documented situations where the cost of winning came at the expense of the student athlete, the team, or the even the University itself.
That said, I believe the answer to the topic lies within the individual fan.
In order to gauge the effectiveness of Penn State's recruiting efforts, one has to ask themselves one question: Do I prefer a winning season, a shot at a bowl, and team filled primarily with good students-athletes that will become productive citizens - or - Do I want to win every big game, the B10 every year, and a National Championship on a regular basis, yet have to deal with allegations of various NCAA violations year in and year out?
I've seen schools referred to as Micheatgan, Free Shoes University, etc. Would anyone want to risk such a label being applied to our beloved Nits?
At the age of 78, the Penn State staff orchestrated one of the greatest recruiting spectacles of all time with the "Maryland Bus". How soon some fans forget the glee and chest pounding that occurred during those months. Now- three seasons removed, the staff's ability is in question.
The staff may not get every recruit they target, and may actually pass on some players the fans feel they MUST get. We'll never know what actually goes on behind the scenes in terms of what recruits want (starting guarantees, easy academics, fringe benefits, etc.) but I have all the faith in the world that the Penn State staff lands more than they lose in an effort to build a solid team of student-athletes.
Jim Naughton of Slate.com once wrote, "College sports is heading toward a market-driven apocalypse". I can only hope that the Penn State staff continues to recruit with a student-athlete team first strategy, thus being very effective in their goal.
The Counterpoint guest blogger needs no introduction to most Penn State fans. He is none other than Fight on State TAPs infamous LionKing25. Here is what LK25 had to say when responding to the question Is Penn State's recruiting strategy still effective in todays college football world?
The fact of the matter is that it is not.
Let’s look at how we are doing this year in state.
Of the top 10 prospects in the state of PA Pitt has four and could have had a fifth with AJ Alexander had WR coach Aubrey Hill not left for Miami.
PSU has one.
No, your eyes aren't deceiving you. One top ten in state commit. Which team finished with 9 wins including an Alamo Bowl victory? I thought it was PSU. So how does Pitt out recruit PSU for in state talent? This is a fair question.
Well for starters Pitt has a younger coach who is out hustling visiting kids in home and showing up at high schools and meeting kids in person and shaking hands. That is what recruiting has become. Perception is reality in recruiting. And the perception is that Wanny is willing to go that extra mile for his kids.
How do recruits perceive PSU? Certainly not in the same way Joe thinks they do. Joe thinks it is a privilege to play for PSU. To an extent it is a privilege. But is it not a privilege to play for OSU, Florida and Notre Dame too? The times have changed as have the recruits. Joe is an older guy who is set in his ways and too stubborn to change for anyone. Zero recruiting trips for an entire recruiting season for the head coach of a major college football program? You must be joking. Simply unacceptable is an understatement!
Terrelle Pryor is an all world athlete and as a QB is a once in a decade prospect. Let’s not kid ourselves. PSU is not even in the running for this amazing talent. Even more frustrating is that QB is a position of desperate need. PSU has not landed a top flight QB in two years! And the last one we did land is considering leaving but we will save that for another topic. We send a defensive coordinator to sell a QB prospect who rightfully was quoted as saying he “doesn't like their (PSU) offense”. Where is Joe Paterno? How about the offensive coordinator? Ugh! Missing out on this kind of in state talent simply wouldn't happen at Ohio State .
And the biggest non Pryor related disaster of the 2008 PSU recruiting saga is Deion Walker . Walker visited PSU several times. He is a Virginia kid and as we all know PSU has recruited very well historically in that state. PSU even has two WRs currently in the program from Virginia. Both recruiting insiders and PSUs own coaching staff felt Walker was in the bag. Maybe this is the problem. Charlie Weiss and the ND staff plain and simply out hustled PSU in the last few weeks of his recruitment. Did Joe Paterno perform his duties as our head coach and visit Deion? No. Not even close. Joe’s philosophy on visiting recruits is only after they have committed. And it cost us Deion Walker.
The single biggest liability in college football recruiting is Joe Paterno. Is this statement harsh? Yes it is. Is it our unfortunate reality? I believe it is. PSU has a head coach who refuses to go out for whatever reason and hit the recruiting trail. He even refuses to put into motion a succession plan. How can any kid and his parents look at an 81 year old coach and not question that coach’s future? Look at the progress of Illinois. Going from the laughingstock of the Big Ten to landing elite kids from as far away as Maryland and Florida.
This PSU fan is quite sick of hearing that PSU cannot recruit nationally. It is a choice. It doesn't have to be this way for one of the biggest programs in college football.
What also frustrates me is the short list of kids we either lost out on or failed to recruit or refused to take altogether. LeSean McCoy is a star at Pitt. Steve Slaton was a star at WVU. Matt Ryan was a star at BC. Chad Henne was a star at Michigan. Kevin Jones. Broderick Green. Vidal Hazelton. The list goes on and on. And for one bogus reason or another Penn State landed none of these big time recruits.
The sad truth is that Joe Paterno is very close to destroying what he built.
Recruiting is far from the only issue at PSU. Disciplinary problems within the program are at an all time high. Below average offenses and lack of development at several positions (including QB consistently plague the PSU program. Sad as it sounds, this and many other issues has many PSU fans simply passing the time until we can enjoy Penn State football again.
It was nothing more then numbers this year. Pitt, take away Baldwin and Nix because nobody is going to get Aliquipa kids to PSU....Nix was always Pitt. Hey it happens. This time next year you'll be sitting there wondering what the heck was I thinking. There is no staff in America working harder...period.
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psujb wrote:There is no staff in America working harder...period
I tend to disagree with this statement. I believe that LJ Sr. TB and Big Red work as hard as anyone when it comes to recruiting.
However, I am sure that we can all agree that Joe Pa works about as little as anyone in the country when it comes to recruiting. You can send DC's to offensive talent all day and it isn't going to do a bit of good.
But, if the HC shows up to a player's basketball game or his school during lunch, that means an awful lot to that kid. Joe just isn't doing it, whether it is out of spite or pride....whatever the case maybe he has become negligent. .....Period
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LK forgot to mention were losing out on Lynn too! Oh wait a second, strike that.
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Some good points and it will be interesting once we do get new energy in at head coach what actually occurs. We will never know what to think unless we poll recruits who didnt come to PSU and find out if the reason is what they do not like in us or what they preferred in the other school. Deione Walker would be an interesting case, was it because Joe didnt visit or that he and his family preferred the in my opinion better perceived education at Notre Dame. OSU is the school I cannot believe we cannot compete on for athletes since they really have nothing more to add as a school than PSU. Their consistent winning in football is all that can attract these kids. Of course back in the Cooper years when they didnt win as much, they didnt recruit well. So we can assume that the upshoot in recruiting is Tressell or what they do or try to sell to kids that does it. What makes me the proudest is when our football players get to speak in public and they are educated well spoken young men. They represent all of us very well. Yes I prefer REAL student athletes than a football factory. I think when we get away from those ideals we get problem children such as Baker et al.
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I kinda agree with the OSU comment. Our stadium is just as big, our fans are just as passionate, and our tradition as a football school is just as entrenched. Some people attribute OSU's recruiting success, in part, to their location in a reasonably large city. Same thing with USC and many others. I guess this makes sense, particularly if you're recruiting guys who grew up in urban areas. What's odd is that the area around OSU's campus is depressed and dirty. As such, aesthetics must not play any role in the decision-making process... if it did, OSU wouldn't be getting nearly as many 4- and 5-star guys.
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I think it is indisputable that the Pennsylvania State University should be able to pick and choose Pennsylvania kids. Although the recruiting class in 2006 was spectacular, we have not been getting all top notch Pennsylvania kids in some time. Ohio State gets nearly every kid they want in Ohio. When they don't get the kid, they are in the final 2. That is telling.
Having said that, I like the idea that Penn State primarily recruits a certain kind of kid. Not that you tell it this past season, but typically Penn State gets character kids. That is worth some number of victories in the long run.
College football is going in an unpleasant direction. The amount of money paid to coaches, the need to fill stadiums, the pressure of TV and other factors are creating an ugly situation. That is not a direction I am comfortable with. While I believe Joe Paterno has outlived his usefulness, I do not want a Rich Rodriguez or Les Miles. Zero recruiting trips is not a pretty number, however.
I think a happy medium between the two guest commentators best suits me as a fan.
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LOL @ "The sad truth is that Joe Paterno is very close to destroying what he built." After the last three seasons. Actually, we should be thanking him for returning PSU to respectibility after the 2000-2004 era.
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"Actually, we should be thanking him for returning PSU to respectibility after the 2000-2004 era."
Why? Was it someone else's false those years were so bad? Please tell who was at fault if not for Joe.
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You're right, it's Joe's fault that many high profile recruits didnt pan out during that period. UGH!
Anything that could have gone wrong in fact did go wrong during that period. If Joe was that bad a recruiter and coach then the program would not have been able to regain momentum since then. To me, that shows he is still at the top of his game. Didnt he also win the coach of the year award a couple years ago?
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Sorry, but I'm not willing to chalk up a 5 year stretch like that to a couple high-profile recruits not panning out. It took PSU 5 years to figure out some guys they brought in weren't going to cut it? Back in Joe's early days - when he thought he "had" to win - he would have pulled out of that tailspin in short order.
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You are correct that Joe takes a lot of the blame for the bad seasons. That is when things looked as bleak as people say they are now. People act like this team went 3-9 last season, not 9-4. Of course there is plenty of room for improvement, but being realistic, the team is better now than it was in 2004 and I think that trend is continuing.
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Now there is a novel thought. Lets thank Joe for fixing something that we paid him around $5M not to F^&k up. LMAO!
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This could be an interesting feature if only both posters would address the same topic. It might be interesting to hear Groz18020 address LK25's argument and tell us how it is he feels that Paterno's inability/refusal to visit recruits is not a liability? It might also be interesting to hear LK25's thoughts on Groz18020's apparent argument that the "Grand Experiment" in its original form is a colossal failure and that in order to maintain academic excellence we'll have to settle for losses. To that end, I'd like to hear to just what lengths LK25 thinks PSU should stoop to in order to get top recruits and to the other end I'd like Groz18020 to tell me how he expects PSU will be able to compete in the recruiting wars with a coach who rarely ventures outside his basement. As it is, we have too guys shouting at the wall here and I can get that on the message boards at both BWI and FOS
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You base an evaluation of the state of recruiting on results - and PSU isn't getting them, pure and simple. I believe there was a statement made a while back that we didn't have a single player from Florida, California, or Texas on the roster. Three major football states and not a single recruit, in addition to the dearth of high quality in-state recruits. If we want to continue the "Grand Experiment", then get out of the Big Ten and go back to an independent because it simply will not work in the Big Ten, or any other major conference. I don't believe you have to cheat, but you do have to recruit aggressively and I just don't see that happening. This isn't like the pros where you get to draft better if you have a lousy record.
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3 straight Top 25 finishes (one #3), 3 straight Bowl Wins (one BCS win). I think most schools would do almost anything for that type of short run. I think PSU ranks 13th nationally in winning percentage over the last 3 years too.
So either Penn State is doing a great job of recruiting, but the coaching sucks and thats why we havent been even better in the Big Ten OR Penn State is doing a horrible job of recruiting, but are coaching up the players well enough to have this success. You cant have it both ways, so which one is the staff doing well with and which one are they doing poorly with?
Penn State is NOT getting out of the Big Ten so please stop with that nonsense.
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How many times has PSU beaten OSU or Michigan in the last 10 years. How many times has Penn State ended up higher than 4th in the conference in the last 10 years? (once?) Please, Joe's day has come and gone. It's been a slide into mediocrity. A younger Joe Paterno would not have put up with it.
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3 straight Top 25 finishes? According to http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/rankingsindex
2007 - unranked with 9-4 record
2006 - ranked #24 with 9-4 record
2005 - ranked #3 with 11-1 record
2004 - unranked with 4-7 record
2003 - unranked with 3-9 record
3 straight bowl wins -
2007: Beat unranked Texas A&M 24-17
2006: Beat then #17 Tennessee 20-10
2005: Beat then #22 FSU in 3OT 26-23
I'm impressed. Our best year of the last five we struggled to beat an FSU team that ended the regular season with an 8-4 record.
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Again, in the last 10 years, how many times ending the year 3rd or higher in the Big 10.
What's the record in the last 10 years vs. OSU and Michigan?
Consider those numbers and you might not be so impressed.
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Homer - I think we're on the same side here - "I'm impressed" was intended as sarcasm.
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OK. I'm dense.
Sorry about dat.
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I think we all get it... we haven't been great, but we haven't been awful either... at least not over the past three years (13th best record in the country over that time period). So, quite obviously, we're not anywhere close to challenging for a National Championship (you have to beat OSU and Mich to do that), but we're surely worthy of some respect for having reached (and won) some half decent bowl games. I know of a few high profile schools who'd love to be able to tell recruits that they consistently win bowl games, like we do at PSU. Just sayin'.
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The one thing I don't agree with is that we "need" to be recruiting in Texas, California, and Florida. Sure, we shouldn't completely ignore those states. But I really think that if we got the top talent from the Mid-Atlantic, New England, and some from the Midwest that we'd be a perennial top 5 team.
Without question the biggest issue I have with JoePa is the fact that he doesn't visit recruits.
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Joe's lack of getting out and pounding the pavement for these recruits is the most significant signal to date that he is now incapable of performing the basic duties of a head coach of a major college football program
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I don't buy any sort of location argument when it comes to recruiting. In any sport. OSU and USC are having the recruiting success they are because Tressel and Carrol are busting there ass. And they're also shady as hell.
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the remark that Joe doesn't visit recruits until AFTER they have committed is totally off track. Joe visited Tamba Hali before he verballed and sealed the deal and if one editor of a competing board is correct, will be visiting Terrelle Pryor this week...without a commitment.
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Last recruit Coach visited before committing was ALE in January '06, two years ago almost to the day. Therefore, you have helped prove the exception, and not the rule.
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Joe was also injured last year, but didn't he visit Still? This year I have to agree, I'd like to see him more involved; however, the kids that come and visit are STILL impressed with meeting the legend and yes some kids STILL believe in team and family atmosphere, not just drawing attention to themselves. And with all this succession plan being announced being vogue, I don't EVER see Joe or PSU simply doing what's vogue. There may be a sort of transition plan in place already and that is why TB is doing MOST of the visiting. Joe telling the media about his plan will be THE LAST PLACE he announces such plan. He might be telling kids what's in the works but the press will be the LAST to know and yea it eats the crap out of them too!
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I suspect the recruits are being polite about meeting Joe. He's a grandfather figure.
Kids like him, but fewer and fewer elite kids want to play for a grandfather who no longer has the energy to visit off campus.
Joe is winding down. Kids can tell.
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I think Mike Farrell (OL verbal) might disagree with you, but what does he know. He is just a HS kid who was recruited by Penn State and met with Joe at PSU a few weeks ago.
Joe is still sharp, witty, and can relate to young kids. That's one of the most amazing things about the old goat.
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He visited Still, but not until after he committed.
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This is a good thread because Joe got away from recruiting BEFORE coming out strong with Hali's class. He was all over the place that year, even depants one of Hali's friends during a pickup BBall game!
I think you are seeing Joe do what Leaders do. The leader shows the way by demonstrating then has the workers follow his lead. I think Joe is handing these closer visits to the assistants (TB and LJ) as a way of showing recruits the future as well. If TB or LJ will both be promoted sometime soon they need the experience in this. Joe is also showing Spanier and others that his assistants are capable and should be strongly considered for his job. Folks Joe is winding down I'm more and more convinced.
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It is very telling to see here and other places that fans run up the flag pole "3 top 25 seasons in a row" like it is some sort of accomplishment and bodes well for the program. I assume they are recent alumni and students.
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Actually, it is. I'm not gonna take time to look up statistics, but consider how many schools actually did that. Maybe 15 or 20 at best! I wouldn't simply dismiss it as something any school can do. Also, consider our recent past. We all had to endure those four losing seasons during the early part of the decade. It really sucked, didn't it? So, I'd hardly call it crazy for people to feel good that we survived that period and got back to winning ways. Certainly, nobody's happy that we lose to OSU and Mich every stinkin' year. It's disgraceful... mostly because it tells us we can't compete with the real elite teams. Of course, how many elite teams are there? OSU, Mich, USC, Florida, LSU, Oklahoma... maybe Texas. That's it. The problem is that two of them are in our own conference!
So, yeah... as true Penn Staters, we're all interested in another National Championship. But please don't act like we haven't accomplished anything over the past three years. If we hadn't, we'd still be going 4-7 or 3-8 and making it legitimate for Pitt fans to mock us.
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You almost make it sound as though TB and LJ never did any recruiting before...They have heavily involved with recruiting for several years and they each have their own strong hold areas.
However, what is taking place now is just complete lack of effort on Joe's part, it has nothing to do with getting his assistants "Experience". Hell, if it wasn't for those two over the past few years, we wouldn't have ANYONE worth a shit on our roster.
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I'm not saying they haven't done recruiting but they are now THE closers for PSU...live with it. You also act as Joe NEVER recruited and closed the deal with numerous kids.
To those who say praising 3 Top 25 are young people are WRONG! We're the old ones who saw this team when it was INCAPABLE of beating NW or Iowa or Minnesota! The pendulum has swung back in the right direction (until the off field incidents, which I feel THE KIDS NEED TO DEAL WITH). We've also seen this recruiting dip (last one was in Scott's year) Look at the kids we brought in then and how much they contributed on the field. I thing even the ones we have now are much better suited (overall) to impact PSU than the previous small class.
Truth be told it is never as good or as Bad as people say, it is usually in the middle.
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I think I have seen everything. Lk given the spotlight. Wow, glad Laschout chose to give him a forum. I didn't think his 10000 posts on FOS saying the same thing were enough.
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As we have said in the past this will be open to many people. We wanted two people on polar opposites for the first one. And I think you will agree LK is polar opposite.
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Very disappointed to see the site go away again right in time for LOI day.
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